I find it interesting that Juliet has begun to try and take control over her life, more so than just who she marries. When she says her face already was ugly before she had cried, and Paris denies this, she replies with,
“That is no slander, sir, which is a truth, And what I spake, I spake it to my face.
Thy face is mine, and thou hast slandered it.
It may be so, for it is not mine own.—“ (IV i 34-37)
This seems to be her outright insulting Paris, telling him that perhaps she was insulting his face as well. It’s interesting to see her gain more of an idea as to what she wants and exhibit these ideas.
I agree! I think that throughout the play, we can see Juliet challenging the expectations and rules of the older people in her life. I think that this is because she was tightly controlled by Lady Capulet, but she now feels like she has more freedom with Romeo/now that Romeo is in her life.
"Or my true heart with treacherous revolt, Turn to another this shall slay them both" (IV.i.59-60). Juliet is saying that she'd rather kill herself than betray Romeo by marrying Paris. This is almost an exact replica of Romeo's parting scene with Friar Lawrence; where he said that death was preferable to banishment and not being able to see Juliet. The two of them have such strong feelings for each other that they'd rather die than be separated, so they run to the one that married them together in the first place: Friar Lawrence. Although the Friar had good intentions when he agreed to get them married, it ended up in this mess that he's forced to fix because he's the only one that knows about their relationship. Essentially, these secrets building up overtime resulted in a highly stressful and complicated situation, disrupting the harmony in society.
I agree that the similarity between these two scenes is very interesting. When Romeo and Juliet first received the news of Romeo's banishment, Juliet was the one who had a more mature reaction because Romeo went straight to attempting to take his life. But now that Juliet is expected to betray Romeo by marrying Paris, and she has lost the support of her family, Juliet says she will attempt to end her life as well. It seems to me that the situation of Romeo's banishment was hard enough on Romeo and Juliet, and Paris' marriage proposal is the last straw for Juliet. We are shown how strong Romeo and Juliet's love for each other is here because both are willing to do anything to be together, even if that means acting irrationally.
“If, rather then to marry county Paris thou hast the strength of will to slay thyself”(73-74) Juliet is so influenced by her emotions that she would take her own life rather then to marry Paris. Is this out of respect and love for Romeo or can she just not stand the thought of being paris’s wife? Does she Make these threats to try to get Friar Lawrence to help her or would she actually harm herself?
I think this is kind of a mix of both in a sense, as she is so devoted to wanting to marry Romeo that she wouldn’t even consider marrying Paris. I think that Juliet sees Romeo as her only option for the future, and when Paris is trying to seduce her into his love, she denies him so that she can have this perfect life with Romeo.
I agree with this, but I think that if her relationship with Romeo were to not work out, she would lose her purpose in life, and lose her drive to be independent, as the one thing that kept her sane was Romeo, and without him, she has nothing to hold on to.
I find it interesting how the Friar is suddenly super on board with Romeo and Juliet's relationship. He's warned Romeo about getting to crazy about this relationship twice, because it could end in violence or even death. But now, the next day, he's helping Juliet devise plans to save their relationship. I think this is because he, as the wisest character in the play, has realized that their relationship has crossed the point of no return, that if he tries to separate them they will kill themselves, even though them staying loyal to each other could (and will) end in tragedy. I think the nurse, as the equivalent of the Friar (for Romeo) to Juliet, might also have realized this. She took the path of trying to get them to forget about each other for their own good (it was very sudden for her to not agree with Juliet). I think the Friar is now just hoping they'll be okay in a different city.
That may be true, but I think that this plot to reunite Romeo and Juliet shows that the Friar may not be so wise after all. It is a risky plan, and we do already know that it ends in tragedy. I believe this new development emphasizes on the Friar's own dream, which is peace for Verona (he married Romeo and Juliet together because "this alliance may so happy prove / To turn your households' rancor to pure love.") Clearly, the Friar has good intentions, but he cares for his dream so much that he is willing to put lives at risk for this new, dangerous plan. I feel like, in this case, Friar Lawrence is thinking with his heart more than his brain. As we learned, sometimes the best intentions have bad consequences/endings.
I find it quite ironic that nobody in Juliet’s family knows that she is married, because she is shot to be married herself and still hasn’t told anyone else that she is married to Romeo. During her time with the friar, she does something that parallels what Romeo did with the knife, and it seem very ironic because that both can’t stand to live without each other and are will long to commit stogie suicide.
I’m a Little confused as to Juliet and the Friar’s plan. At first I thought Juliet was really going to commit suicide. But now it seems, to me, as though they have devised a cunning plan to trick the Capulet family so that Juliet can live with Romeo in Mantua. Correct me if I’m wrong, I’m just a little bit confused. Also, I find it funny because if this situation was based today in the 21st century, Juliet should be weary to trust the crazy priest. I know he is only trying to help her out of her troublesome situation but if you look at this very literally/realistically, She is 13 and Friar Lawrence is giving her a vile to pretend to pretend commit suicide...possibly a bit unnerving, or worrisome.
It is a confusing plan! When Friar Lawrence hears that Juliet is desperate enough to kill herself rather than marry Paris, he proposes his risky plan to give her a vial of something that will make her appear dead. The fake death is not meant to be viewed as a suicide. Rather, when her "corpse" is found, she will be interred in the Capulet vault with all of her deceased kin (including Tybalt). The Friar will send letters to Romeo about the plan and have him go to the cemetery to break Juliet out of the vault.
I found this scene connects to the question we talked about in the beginning of the unit about growing up involves challenging the expectations of your parents. It is clear that Juliet is does not agree with what her parents want from her and has no fear in going against their expectations for her.
I agree, in the beginning in Act 1 when Lady Capulet tells Juliet to get married to Paris, Juliet considers it. But in Act 4, Juliet refuses to marry Paris because she is in love with Romeo and wants to marry him.
I'm confused with lines 23-30. Is Juliet expressing that she loves Romeo and meanwhile Paris isn't understanding? Or is she saying that she'll confess to loving "him" --referring to Paris?
"To live an unstained wife to my sweet love" (IV.i.90). I found this line ironic because the alternative to marrying Paris (what Juliet views as being a "stained wife") is to commit suicide-- literally staining things (the knife, clothes, etc) with her blood. I wonder if this was intentional.
Now that another secret plan has been made with the Friar, I find it interesting that all the good intentions that the Friar has had with the secret of marrying Romeo and Juliet to stop the feud between the Capulets and the Montagues has led to unseen tragedy. It has made both Romeo and Juliet very sad, and has created a larger gap between the families than before, especially after Tybalt’s death. This makes me think that this plan with Juliet faking death is going to go horribly wrong as well, further showing the theme that good intentions don’t always end up with good results.
I agree, with most of what you said. Even though the Friar has a good intention, the results doesn’t necessarily have to be good. This happens a lot in this play For example, Tybalt has good intentions of defending his families honor but the result is he dies and the families become even more divided. I don’t really understand what you mean by the plan has lead to tragedy and it creates a larger gap between the families because no one in the families know except for the nurse.
Juliet says, "Give me, give me! O, tell not me of fear!" (4.i.123). This shows how strong her love with Romeo is and that it really is true. She shows her bravery and willingness to drink something that will make her feel and seem dead to avoid being married to Paris. She is showing that she is independent and can make her own decisions, this one seeming to be made due to her strong feelings and emotions.
I agree, and I also think the choppy sentences and exclamation points make her sound either incredibly enthusiastic or possibly desperate in this moment, which, considering that she’s about to drink a death- simulating potion, is surprising. It shows that she is eager for any chance to see Romeo again and that this is her last resort
There is dramatic irony through most of this scene, as friar Laurence and Juliet both know of Juliets marriage with Romeo, while Paris obviously does not. I think Shakespeare includes this irony to add stress and tension to the scene, and also some humor for the reader.
I agree! Juliet goes to Friar Lawrence in the first place to confess her feelings for Romeo. The irony is that Juliet is talking about Romeo and confessing her love for Romeo to the Friar, but Paris doesn’t know that and assumes she’s talking about him (IV.i.21-27). I feel bad for Paris.
It seems like the nurse and the friar have somewhat switched their views on Romeo and Juliet's relationship at this point in the play. In the beginning, the nurse acted as Juliet's mother figure, helping her and giving her advice. Now, she tells Juliet to marry Paris and betray Romeo, leaving Juliet in a position where she feels that she must lie to her. Earlier, Friar Lawrence cautioned Romeo about falling in love with and marrying Juliet. He is now helping Juliet fake her own death so she can be with Romeo. I wonder why the nurse and friar have changed their views and actions so much since the beginning of the play. I also wonder what they really think about Romeo and Juliet and what their true hopes for them are
I think what changed was that they realized that sometimes what they personally want or what Romeo and Juliet want is not the best thing for them. The Friar initially thought that Romeo and Juliet were rushing into their relationship, but put aside what he personally thought because he truly believed that it’ll do more good than harm if they married. The Nurse has always showed her disapproval of Romeo, but she had put that thought aside because Juliet seemed happy with him. Now that Romeo is gone, she put aside Juliet’s own personal want because she believes that marrying Paris will be better for Juliet in the long run. They both have only good intentions and want to help Romeo and Juliet, no matter what they think.
It's a reference to the time period when Paris says, "Thy face is mine, and thou hast slandered it." Because of the custom at the time, I guess a husband would completely own his wife. This example reminds me of Lady Capulet's dialogue when she used storybook imagery and likened Juliet to a mere cover to complete Paris's "book". Also, it's ironic that Paris believes Juliet only refuses to marry him because of her grief from Tybalt's death, since Juliet clearly decided that she cares more about Romeo's exile than Tybalt's death!
I agree that at the time, women were regarded as property, but I find it interesting that Juliet does not feel the need to comply. In IV.i.19, Juliet responds coldly to Paris. At the time, a betrothed woman would be respectful to any man, especially her fiancé. She would not speak that much, and it shows Juliet’s personality.
I think that in this scene, Juliet really begins to question her parents authority by not wanting to marry Paris like her parents want her to. I think that this is helping Juliet find out who she truly is as a person and what she wants in life.
I agree! Now that the Nurse has sided more with Lord and Lady Capulet, Juliet is on her own. Though she acted reserved before, because of her passion for Romeo, she breaks out of her shell and speaks up for what she wants. This illustrates the power of young love, and how it can be used to manipulate people.
Something I found interesting is that Friar suggests that they go through a completely elaborate plan to allow Juliet and Romeo to run away together. Yet, so far throughout the book no matter how many good intentions they make and no matter how well they plan coincidences lead to causalities, it makes me wonder what kind of question shakespere raising about fate and destiny. Does he believe in it or rather does he use these events to push an alternative message.
Around line 25 Paris, says “do not deny to him that you love me” which seems very condescending, and business like. I wonder if Paris loves Juliet or even if he cares about her love. He seems just to be asking for her love as a kind of business transaction. I think that Paris does not love Juliet, and only sees their wedding as a kind of business transaction. I also wonder if Juliet would be less determined to leave their relationship, if he loved her and their relationship was more romantic than businesslike
One thing I took notice of was IV.i.70 where friar lawrence seems to, in a dark time when Juliet seems to be talking about either murder and or suicide, make a pun on the word execution. This is interesting to me because of the general atmosphere of the scene at the time not really fitting with where puns normally land both in R&J previously and in modern usage, but this pun appears in a much darker scene and I think it may have something to do with foreshadowing. From what I can tell the plan friar lawrence is talking about executing leads to R&J's deaths, and so it may be used to foreshadow that they will die as a result of the plan.
Frair Lawrence says,“If no inconstant toy, nor womanish fear, Abate thy valor in the acting it.” IV.i.121-122 I this shows a lot about the society at the time of this piece. The gender roles that are continuously imposed on the characters keep resurfacing. By saying that Juliet must not lose her bravery through womanly fear show what they expect of woman at the time. This also came up when Paris claimed Juliet’s face to be his. It is. A common theme in this play for men to be expected to always be courageous and for woman to always be selfless. I think because Frair Lawrence is the only character on Juliet’s side other than Romeo really shows the expectations of woman because I don’t think Frair Lawrence is trying to be conceding toward Juliet seeing as he’s trying to help her not commit suicide. Juliet is told or shown by almost every character she knows (including parents) what they want her to be/ what she should be. She is not given many opertunities to make her own decisions.
I was surprised that Juliet would sacrifice her life because she doesn’t want to betray Romeo. She is willing to kill her self so that she doesn’t have to marry Paris and go against her true marriage with Romeo.
“O, shut the door, and when thou hast done so, Come weep with me, past hope, past care, past help”(IV.i.45-45). Juliet is so upset that she is being forced to marry Paris. She only wants to be with Romeo and I wonder why they have to come up with this long complicated plan and she doesn’t just run away to be with Romeo. Because she can’t stand the thought of not being with Romeo and going with someone like Paris.
The only person she trusts is Romeo. Everybody else that she thought she trusted were in fact betraying her and not on her side. Paris is the one that everybody wants her to marry, but she wants to go with her true love, who is obviously Romeo.
It is interesting to see the arch of the Friars behavior even through this chapter. He seems to agree to marry Juliet and Paris, it he also has intentions of helping Juliet not marry Paris. He plays the role almost of a double agent because of his friendship with Romeo.
At this stage, Juliet is truly desperate. This will kill her, so she doesn’t have to marry Paris. Also, feels like the friar is betraying Romeo by letting her do this.
We see here how both Juliet and Romeo aren’t very mature, as before even attempting to find any alternatives where they can both be happy and be together, they both go straight to committing suicide.
I feel Juliet’s relationship it’s Ro,el has changed her perspective on so many things, one including how she treats Lady Capulet, and now “challenges her expectations” by refusing to marry Paris. Juliet’s love for Romeo is so strong and isn’t willing to give that up for Paris, the man her parents want her to marry. Juliet has never actually been in love with someone before Romeo and I feel this changes her response to her parents and the way she treats them.
In this scene, Juliet is becoming more independent and she is starting to think for herself. In the beginning of the play, Juliet did whatever the nurse and her mother said, but now she is doing what she wants. She does not want to marry Paris, because she really loves Romeo, and she will do whatever she needs to do to make sure she doesn’t have to marry Paris.
The friar always does seem to want the best for the young couple, both separately and individually. I’ve seen a lot of comments about his change in attitude regarding Romeo and Juliet’s relationship, going from cautioning away from it, to now, in this scene, devising a plot to keep the two together. I think that, perhaps, this doesn’t come from a change of heart, but rather his innocent nature that makes him want to always help where he can. As you recall, he initially marries the two in hopes to bridge the rift between the families, and improve the situation for everyone. So, we can agree that he does have good intentions in that scene. In the scenes where he helps Romeo and Juliet; sending Romeo off to Mantua, giving Juliet the vial; he still has those same good intentions and desire to aid. In both of those scenes, the kids threaten suicide if they are to be apart. The friar, understanding that this is not a wise solution, seeks to prevent them from impulsively ending their own lives. His previous misgivings about the relationship are overshadowed by the imminent threat of the kids dying, and he’d rather they be alive and together, rather than not alive at all. I think that this is why he helps them so willingly in these scenes.
Paris says that he knows Juliet would confess to Friar Lawrence that she loves him and I feel like that’s arrogant of him. If she truly did love him why would she protest to the wedding? Also I can’t help but compare this to Romeo. Romeo would never assume that she loves him when she’s being so cold and wouldn’t act like he owned her (line 36). Also is it against the law to be married to 2 people at a time? Would she even be able to marry Paris?
Yes I agree! This is just another time that shows Romeo and Juliet’s true love. Friar Lawrence just assumes Juliet will marry him but he doesn’t understand that she is not in love with him and would never marry him.
I don’t think anyone knows that Romeo and Juliet are married except for Friar Lawrence and the Nurse, so to everyone else Juliet is still a single girl with no husband.
I find it astonishing that Juliet trusts Friar Lawrence, who she has only met once before, enough to drink a mystery liquid that will give the appearance of her death. Juliet is truly desperate to be with Romeo
After Friar Lawrence tells Juliet about the consequences of the action she is about to do, Juliet says, “Give me, give me! O, tell not me of fear!” (IV.i. 123). Juliet is acting on emotion rather than being rational because she is compelled by her relationship with Romeo and acts based on this plan she has created with the first. Since Romeo believes she cannot live without Romeo in her life.
I felt like this was another example of dramatic irony. Paris believes that Juliet is crying for someone that she is not, and believes that her face belongs to him. In reality, Juliet is crying for Romeo, and she thinks her face is Romeo’s, not Paris’, and she has done nothing against Paris, for she never cared about him and never will.
I feel like Juliet is really brave in this scene, because she is risking many thing just to be with Romeo. The plan is not even very great and there can be many errors like what Belicia said. If Juliet’s family found out about this plan, they would be very very angry. Also, it seems like Paris is really in love with Juliet, and I feel really bad for him.
I find it interesting that Juliet has begun to try and take control over her life, more so than just who she marries. When she says her face already was ugly before she had cried, and Paris denies this, she replies with,
ReplyDelete“That is no slander, sir, which is a truth,
And what I spake, I spake it to my face.
Thy face is mine, and thou hast slandered it.
It may be so, for it is not mine own.—“ (IV i 34-37)
This seems to be her outright insulting Paris, telling him that perhaps she was insulting his face as well. It’s interesting to see her gain more of an idea as to what she wants and exhibit these ideas.
I agree! I think that throughout the play, we can see Juliet challenging the expectations and rules of the older people in her life. I think that this is because she was tightly controlled by Lady Capulet, but she now feels like she has more freedom with Romeo/now that Romeo is in her life.
Delete"Or my true heart with treacherous revolt, Turn to another this shall slay them both" (IV.i.59-60). Juliet is saying that she'd rather kill herself than betray Romeo by marrying Paris. This is almost an exact replica of Romeo's parting scene with Friar Lawrence; where he said that death was preferable to banishment and not being able to see Juliet. The two of them have such strong feelings for each other that they'd rather die than be separated, so they run to the one that married them together in the first place: Friar Lawrence. Although the Friar had good intentions when he agreed to get them married, it ended up in this mess that he's forced to fix because he's the only one that knows about their relationship. Essentially, these secrets building up overtime resulted in a highly stressful and complicated situation, disrupting the harmony in society.
ReplyDeleteI agree that the similarity between these two scenes is very interesting. When Romeo and Juliet first received the news of Romeo's banishment, Juliet was the one who had a more mature reaction because Romeo went straight to attempting to take his life. But now that Juliet is expected to betray Romeo by marrying Paris, and she has lost the support of her family, Juliet says she will attempt to end her life as well. It seems to me that the situation of Romeo's banishment was hard enough on Romeo and Juliet, and Paris' marriage proposal is the last straw for Juliet. We are shown how strong Romeo and Juliet's love for each other is here because both are willing to do anything to be together, even if that means acting irrationally.
Delete“If, rather then to marry county Paris thou hast the strength of will to slay thyself”(73-74) Juliet is so influenced by her emotions that she would take her own life rather then to marry Paris. Is this out of respect and love for Romeo or can she just not stand the thought of being paris’s wife? Does she Make these threats to try to get Friar Lawrence to help her or would she actually harm herself?
ReplyDeleteI think this is kind of a mix of both in a sense, as she is so devoted to wanting to marry Romeo that she wouldn’t even consider marrying Paris. I think that Juliet sees Romeo as her only option for the future, and when Paris is trying to seduce her into his love, she denies him so that she can have this perfect life with Romeo.
DeleteI agree with this, but I think that if her relationship with Romeo were to not work out, she would lose her purpose in life, and lose her drive to be independent, as the one thing that kept her sane was Romeo, and without him, she has nothing to hold on to.
DeleteI find it interesting how the Friar is suddenly super on board with Romeo and Juliet's relationship. He's warned Romeo about getting to crazy about this relationship twice, because it could end in violence or even death. But now, the next day, he's helping Juliet devise plans to save their relationship. I think this is because he, as the wisest character in the play, has realized that their relationship has crossed the point of no return, that if he tries to separate them they will kill themselves, even though them staying loyal to each other could (and will) end in tragedy. I think the nurse, as the equivalent of the Friar (for Romeo) to Juliet, might also have realized this. She took the path of trying to get them to forget about each other for their own good (it was very sudden for her to not agree with Juliet). I think the Friar is now just hoping they'll be okay in a different city.
ReplyDeleteThat may be true, but I think that this plot to reunite Romeo and Juliet shows that the Friar may not be so wise after all. It is a risky plan, and we do already know that it ends in tragedy. I believe this new development emphasizes on the Friar's own dream, which is peace for Verona (he married Romeo and Juliet together because "this alliance may so happy prove / To turn your households' rancor to pure love.") Clearly, the Friar has good intentions, but he cares for his dream so much that he is willing to put lives at risk for this new, dangerous plan. I feel like, in this case, Friar Lawrence is thinking with his heart more than his brain. As we learned, sometimes the best intentions have bad consequences/endings.
Delete-Anya C.
I find it quite ironic that nobody in Juliet’s family knows that she is married, because she is shot to be married herself and still hasn’t told anyone else that she is married to Romeo. During her time with the friar, she does something that parallels what Romeo did with the knife, and it seem very ironic because that both can’t stand to live without each other and are will long to commit stogie suicide.
ReplyDeleteI’m a Little confused as to Juliet and the Friar’s plan. At first I thought Juliet was really going to commit suicide. But now it seems, to me, as though they have devised a cunning plan to trick the Capulet family so that Juliet can live with Romeo in Mantua. Correct me if I’m wrong, I’m just a little bit confused. Also, I find it funny because if this situation was based today in the 21st century, Juliet should be weary to trust the crazy priest. I know he is only trying to help her out of her troublesome situation but if you look at this very literally/realistically, She is 13 and Friar Lawrence is giving her a vile to pretend to pretend commit suicide...possibly a bit unnerving, or worrisome.
ReplyDeleteIt is a confusing plan! When Friar Lawrence hears that Juliet is desperate enough to kill herself rather than marry Paris, he proposes his risky plan to give her a vial of something that will make her appear dead. The fake death is not meant to be viewed as a suicide. Rather, when her "corpse" is found, she will be interred in the Capulet vault with all of her deceased kin (including Tybalt). The Friar will send letters to Romeo about the plan and have him go to the cemetery to break Juliet out of the vault.
DeleteI found this scene connects to the question we talked about in the beginning of the unit about growing up involves challenging the expectations of your parents. It is clear that Juliet is does not agree with what her parents want from her and has no fear in going against their expectations for her.
ReplyDeleteI agree, in the beginning in Act 1 when Lady Capulet tells Juliet to get married to Paris, Juliet considers it. But in Act 4, Juliet refuses to marry Paris because she is in love with Romeo and wants to marry him.
DeleteI'm confused with lines 23-30. Is Juliet expressing that she loves Romeo and meanwhile Paris isn't understanding? Or is she saying that she'll confess to loving "him" --referring to Paris?
ReplyDeleteI think she is referring to the Friar, or at least Paris interprets it this way, but she could be sneakily referring to Romeo as well.
DeleteYes! You got it, Leo.
Delete"To live an unstained wife to my sweet love" (IV.i.90). I found this line ironic because the alternative to marrying Paris (what Juliet views as being a "stained wife") is to commit suicide-- literally staining things (the knife, clothes, etc) with her blood. I wonder if this was intentional.
ReplyDeleteI agree, I think it is intentional by Shakespeare. I think this is also a foreshadow of what’s going to happen next
DeleteNow that another secret plan has been made with the Friar, I find it interesting that all the good intentions that the Friar has had with the secret of marrying Romeo and Juliet to stop the feud between the Capulets and the Montagues has led to unseen tragedy. It has made both Romeo and Juliet very sad, and has created a larger gap between the families than before, especially after Tybalt’s death. This makes me think that this plan with Juliet faking death is going to go horribly wrong as well, further showing the theme that good intentions don’t always end up with good results.
ReplyDeleteI agree, with most of what you said. Even though the Friar has a good intention, the results doesn’t necessarily have to be good. This happens a lot in this play For example, Tybalt has good intentions of defending his families honor but the result is he dies and the families become even more divided. I don’t really understand what you mean by the plan has lead to tragedy and it creates a larger gap between the families because no one in the families know except for the nurse.
DeleteJuliet says, "Give me, give me! O, tell not me of fear!" (4.i.123). This shows how strong her love with Romeo is and that it really is true. She shows her bravery and willingness to drink something that will make her feel and seem dead to avoid being married to Paris. She is showing that she is independent and can make her own decisions, this one seeming to be made due to her strong feelings and emotions.
ReplyDeleteI agree, and I also think the choppy sentences and exclamation points make her sound either incredibly enthusiastic or possibly desperate in this moment, which, considering that she’s about to drink a death- simulating potion, is surprising. It shows that she is eager for any chance to see Romeo again and that this is her last resort
DeleteThere is dramatic irony through most of this scene, as friar Laurence and Juliet both know of Juliets marriage with Romeo, while Paris obviously does not. I think Shakespeare includes this irony to add stress and tension to the scene, and also some humor for the reader.
ReplyDeleteI agree! Juliet goes to Friar Lawrence in the first place to confess her feelings for Romeo. The irony is that Juliet is talking about Romeo and confessing her love for Romeo to the Friar, but Paris doesn’t know that and assumes she’s talking about him (IV.i.21-27). I feel bad for Paris.
DeleteIt seems like the nurse and the friar have somewhat switched their views on Romeo and Juliet's relationship at this point in the play. In the beginning, the nurse acted as Juliet's mother figure, helping her and giving her advice. Now, she tells Juliet to marry Paris and betray Romeo, leaving Juliet in a position where she feels that she must lie to her. Earlier, Friar Lawrence cautioned Romeo about falling in love with and marrying Juliet. He is now helping Juliet fake her own death so she can be with Romeo. I wonder why the nurse and friar have changed their views and actions so much since the beginning of the play. I also wonder what they really think about Romeo and Juliet and what their true hopes for them are
ReplyDeleteI think what changed was that they realized that sometimes what they personally want or what Romeo and Juliet want is not the best thing for them. The Friar initially thought that Romeo and Juliet were rushing into their relationship, but put aside what he personally thought because he truly believed that it’ll do more good than harm if they married. The Nurse has always showed her disapproval of Romeo, but she had put that thought aside because Juliet seemed happy with him. Now that Romeo is gone, she put aside Juliet’s own personal want because she believes that marrying Paris will be better for Juliet in the long run. They both have only good intentions and want to help Romeo and Juliet, no matter what they think.
DeleteIt's a reference to the time period when Paris says, "Thy face is mine, and thou hast slandered it." Because of the custom at the time, I guess a husband would completely own his wife. This example reminds me of Lady Capulet's dialogue when she used storybook imagery and likened Juliet to a mere cover to complete Paris's "book". Also, it's ironic that Paris believes Juliet only refuses to marry him because of her grief from Tybalt's death, since Juliet clearly decided that she cares more about Romeo's exile than Tybalt's death!
ReplyDelete- Anya C.
I agree that at the time, women were regarded as property, but I find it interesting that Juliet does not feel the need to comply. In IV.i.19, Juliet responds coldly to Paris. At the time, a betrothed woman would be respectful to any man, especially her fiancé. She would not speak that much, and it shows Juliet’s personality.
DeleteI think that in this scene, Juliet really begins to question her parents authority by not wanting to marry Paris like her parents want her to. I think that this is helping Juliet find out who she truly is as a person and what she wants in life.
ReplyDeleteI agree! Now that the Nurse has sided more with Lord and Lady Capulet, Juliet is on her own. Though she acted reserved before, because of her passion for Romeo, she breaks out of her shell and speaks up for what she wants. This illustrates the power of young love, and how it can be used to manipulate people.
DeleteSomething I found interesting is that Friar suggests that they go through a completely elaborate plan to allow Juliet and Romeo to run away together. Yet, so far throughout the book no matter how many good intentions they make and no matter how well they plan coincidences lead to causalities, it makes me wonder what kind of question shakespere raising about fate and destiny. Does he believe in it or rather does he use these events to push an alternative message.
ReplyDeleteAround line 25 Paris, says “do not deny to him that you love me” which seems very condescending, and business like. I wonder if Paris loves Juliet or even if he cares about her love. He seems just to be asking for her love as a kind of business transaction. I think that Paris does not love Juliet, and only sees their wedding as a kind of business transaction. I also wonder if Juliet would be less determined to leave their relationship, if he loved her and their relationship was more romantic than businesslike
ReplyDeleteOne thing I took notice of was IV.i.70 where friar lawrence seems to, in a dark time when Juliet seems to be talking about either murder and or suicide, make a pun on the word execution. This is interesting to me because of the general atmosphere of the scene at the time not really fitting with where puns normally land both in R&J previously and in modern usage, but this pun appears in a much darker scene and I think it may have something to do with foreshadowing. From what I can tell the plan friar lawrence is talking about executing leads to R&J's deaths, and so it may be used to foreshadow that they will die as a result of the plan.
ReplyDeleteFrair Lawrence says,“If no inconstant toy, nor womanish fear,
ReplyDeleteAbate thy valor in the acting it.” IV.i.121-122 I this shows a lot about the society at the time of this piece. The gender roles that are continuously imposed on the characters keep resurfacing. By saying that Juliet must not lose her bravery through womanly fear show what they expect of woman at the time. This also came up when Paris claimed Juliet’s face to be his. It is. A common theme in this play for men to be expected to always be courageous and for woman to always be selfless. I think because Frair Lawrence is the only character on Juliet’s side other than Romeo really shows the expectations of woman because I don’t think Frair Lawrence is trying to be conceding toward Juliet seeing as he’s trying to help her not commit suicide. Juliet is told or shown by almost every character she knows (including parents) what they want her to be/ what she should be. She is not given many opertunities to make her own decisions.
I was surprised that Juliet would sacrifice her life because she doesn’t want to betray Romeo. She is willing to kill her self so that she doesn’t have to marry Paris and go against her true marriage with Romeo.
ReplyDelete“O, shut the door, and when thou hast done so, Come weep with me, past hope, past care, past help”(IV.i.45-45). Juliet is so upset that she is being forced to marry Paris. She only wants to be with Romeo and I wonder why they have to come up with this long complicated plan and she doesn’t just run away to be with Romeo. Because she can’t stand the thought of not being with Romeo and going with someone like Paris.
ReplyDeleteThe only person she trusts is Romeo. Everybody else that she thought she trusted were in fact betraying her and not on her side. Paris is the one that everybody wants her to marry, but she wants to go with her true love, who is obviously Romeo.
ReplyDeleteIt is interesting to see the arch of the Friars behavior even through this chapter. He seems to agree to marry Juliet and Paris, it he also has intentions of helping Juliet not marry Paris. He plays the role almost of a double agent because of his friendship with Romeo.
ReplyDeleteAt this stage, Juliet is truly desperate. This will kill her, so she doesn’t have to marry Paris. Also, feels like the friar is betraying Romeo by letting her do this.
ReplyDeleteWe see here how both Juliet and Romeo aren’t very mature, as before even attempting to find any alternatives where they can both be happy and be together, they both go straight to committing suicide.
ReplyDeleteI feel Juliet’s relationship it’s Ro,el has changed her perspective on so many things, one including how she treats Lady Capulet, and now “challenges her expectations” by refusing to marry Paris. Juliet’s love for Romeo is so strong and isn’t willing to give that up for Paris, the man her parents want her to marry. Juliet has never actually been in love with someone before Romeo and I feel this changes her response to her parents and the way she treats them.
ReplyDeleteIn this scene, Juliet is becoming more independent and she is starting to think for herself. In the beginning of the play, Juliet did whatever the nurse and her mother said, but now she is doing what she wants. She does not want to marry Paris, because she really loves Romeo, and she will do whatever she needs to do to make sure she doesn’t have to marry Paris.
ReplyDeleteThe friar always does seem to want the best for the young couple, both separately and individually. I’ve seen a lot of comments about his change in attitude regarding Romeo and Juliet’s relationship, going from cautioning away from it, to now, in this scene, devising a plot to keep the two together. I think that, perhaps, this doesn’t come from a change of heart, but rather his innocent nature that makes him want to always help where he can. As you recall, he initially marries the two in hopes to bridge the rift between the families, and improve the situation for everyone. So, we can agree that he does have good intentions in that scene. In the scenes where he helps Romeo and Juliet; sending Romeo off to Mantua, giving Juliet the vial; he still has those same good intentions and desire to aid. In both of those scenes, the kids threaten suicide if they are to be apart. The friar, understanding that this is not a wise solution, seeks to prevent them from impulsively ending their own lives. His previous misgivings about the relationship are overshadowed by the imminent threat of the kids dying, and he’d rather they be alive and together, rather than not alive at all. I think that this is why he helps them so willingly in these scenes.
ReplyDeleteParis says that he knows Juliet would confess to Friar Lawrence that she loves him and I feel like that’s arrogant of him. If she truly did love him why would she protest to the wedding? Also I can’t help but compare this to Romeo. Romeo would never assume that she loves him when she’s being so cold and wouldn’t act like he owned her (line 36). Also is it against the law to be married to 2 people at a time? Would she even be able to marry Paris?
ReplyDeleteYes I agree! This is just another time that shows Romeo and Juliet’s true love. Friar Lawrence just assumes Juliet will marry him but he doesn’t understand that she is not in love with him and would never marry him.
DeleteI don’t think anyone knows that Romeo and Juliet are married except for Friar Lawrence and the Nurse, so to everyone else Juliet is still a single girl with no husband.
DeleteI find it astonishing that Juliet trusts Friar Lawrence, who she has only met once before, enough to drink a mystery liquid that will give the appearance of her death. Juliet is truly desperate to be with Romeo
ReplyDeleteAfter Friar Lawrence tells Juliet about the consequences of the action she is about to do, Juliet says, “Give me, give me! O, tell not me of fear!” (IV.i. 123).
ReplyDeleteJuliet is acting on emotion rather than being rational because she is compelled by her relationship with Romeo and acts based on this plan she has created with the first. Since Romeo believes she cannot live without Romeo in her life.
“It may be so, for it is not mine own.”
ReplyDelete- Juliet
I felt like this was another example of dramatic irony. Paris believes that Juliet is crying for someone that she is not, and believes that her face belongs to him. In reality, Juliet is crying for Romeo, and she thinks her face is Romeo’s, not Paris’, and she has done nothing against Paris, for she never cared about him and never will.
Including Romeo in this plan opens up a huge opportunity for communication errors- what if Romeo misreads or does not get the letters!
ReplyDeleteI feel like Juliet is really brave in this scene, because she is risking many thing just to be with Romeo. The plan is not even very great and there can be many errors like what Belicia said. If Juliet’s family found out about this plan, they would be very very angry. Also, it seems like Paris is really in love with Juliet, and I feel really bad for him.
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